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- Here, Thomas tells him the real story, that Penny was delusional and that Arthur was adopted, but she kept trying to say she was Thomas’s even though the two of them never had a relationship. In short, she was crazy. This exchange ends, naturally, with Arthur getting punched in the face after becoming increasingly belligerent.
www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2019/10/06/answering-the-thomas-wayne-question-in-joker/
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Throughout Joker 2019, we aren’t given exact answer to whether or not Arthur Fleck is Thomas Wayne’s son or not. It comes as a big reveal at the start of the final act that Penny did in fact adopt Arthur. Then he was abused and mistreated. It ties off that Arthur has no relation to Thomas at all and is even painted that him thinking he does ...
Oct 6, 2019 · Here, Thomas tells him the real story, that Penny was delusional and that Arthur was adopted, but she kept trying to say she was Thomas’s even though the two of them never had a relationship. In...
- Paul Tassi
Oct 7, 2024 · One of the most interesting subplots in Joker concerns Penny Fleck's claim that she once had an affair with Gotham City's resident billionaire business mogul Thomas Wayne while she was working for him, and that Arthur was Thomas' biological son.
- SPOILERS! We break down the many reads we had on the film's final scenes and what we think they meant.
- What Happens at the End of Joker?
- Was It All in Joker’s Head?
- Will there be a Joker sequel?
- What Does the Ending of Joker Mean?
- Joker Movie Influences
- Joker Movie Images
- 11 Batman Villains Who Deserve Great Movies
By Jim Vejvoda
Updated: Apr 28, 2020 10:15 pm
Posted: Oct 11, 2019 11:00 pm
Full SPOILERS ahead for Joker!
Given his reputation as an unreliable narrator, it should come as no surprise that the Joker’s solo movie is a story rife with ambiguity that might make viewers question how much truth there is to what is depicted in the DC film, including its deliberately murky ending.
Given how open to interpretation Joker is, we’ve deviated from our usual Ending Explained approach to include multiple takes on the film’s ending from IGN editors who have seen the film.
It is in an atmosphere of growing civil unrest in Gotham City that Joker appears on Live With Murray Franklin — and kills the talk show host on air as retribution for previously mocking him. The shocking televised murder grips the media just as Gotham’s protests against the rich and powerful explode into full-on violent rioting. As he’s driven off by a GCPD officer, Joker watches as Gotham — the city that has thus far been so cruelly indifferent to him — collapses into fiery anarchy. It brings a smile to his painted face despite the cop who’s driving him castigating him for the madness he’s inspired.
That’s when an ambulance driven by two clown-masked rioters slams into the cop car, knocking out Arthur Fleck/Joker and more grievously injuring the policeman driving the patrol car. The duo delicately extract Joker from the backseat and lay him reverently on the hood of the crashed police car. Throngs of masked looters and rioters start to swarm around Joker.
The movie intercuts with scenes of similar anarchy elsewhere in Gotham. We see rioters turning a more posh part of town into chaos. There’s a glitzy movie theater playing a double bill of Blow Out and Zorro the Gay Blade, attended by Thomas, Martha and young Bruce Wayne, who exit the theater and into the chaos. Thomas guides his wife and son through the crowd before they sneak down a side alley to avoid rioters.
Their escape doesn’t go unnoticed by a clown-masked gunman who follows them into the alley. (Remember, Thomas Wayne is a mayoral candidate who previously made disparaging remarks about the clown-masked protestors on TV.) The gunman draws on Thomas Wayne, calling him by name, the latter only managing a “No, pal!” before the gunman says, echoing Joker’s line before he killed Murray Franklin, “You get what you f*****g deserve!” The gunman shoots Thomas dead and then turns his gun on Martha, killing her too — while also breaking her pearl necklace (maintaining the long tradition of portraying the Waynes’ murders).
Meanwhile, Joker wakes up aboard the hood of the smashed patrol car and sees the anarchy he’s helped unleash. After a lifetime of being ignored and abused, Arthur Fleck is now someone who is being celebrated. He stands atop the car and uses the blood from his mouth to draw a Joker smile across his face. He preens for the crowd, a hero, an idol, a criminal celebrity.
Then the screen cuts to black.
After a pause, we see Arthur (sans Joker makeup) in a cell being interviewed by a shrink. He appears to have been institutionalized in the interim, presumably in Arkham, his handcuffed hands working a cigarette. He’s dressed in all white and within a white room, chuckling to himself. The shrink asks him what he’s laughing about. He says he was thinking of a joke. When she asks what it was, he replies, “You wouldn’t get it.”
In those moments there’s a quick shot of young Bruce Wayne standing over the corpses of his slain parents in the alley. We then cut back to Arthur, cigarette in hand, as he speaks the lyrics to “That’s Life” while the Frank Sinatra tune plays.
Director Todd Phillips has come out on record to say "we have no plans for a [Joker] sequel," saying, "We made this movie, I pitched it to Warner Bros. as one movie. It exists in its own world. That's it." That being said, there's always the chance Joker's record-breaking $96 million opening weekend might change some tunes, but as things currently stand, there will not be a sequel to Joker.
During a recent interview, Joaquin Phoenix did leave the door open for a Joker 2, however unlikely. “I talked to Todd a lot about what else we might be able to do, in general, just to work together, but also specifically, if there’s something else we can do with Joker that might be interesting,” Phoenix said. “So, it ended up being a dream role. It’s nothing that I really wanted to do prior to working on this movie. I don’t know that there is [more to do]. Me and Todd would still be shooting now if we could, right? Because it seemed endless, the possibilities of where we can go with the character.”
This final scene isn’t the only sequence in the film where we see Arthur in such an institutionalized setting. Very early on in the film, as he speaks to his social worker, Arthur mentions how he thinks he’d been better off when he was hospitalized. The social worker asks him if he’s given any more thought about why he was hospitalized. Arthur dismisses it with, “Who knows?” But in between those lines the film cuts to a quick shot of Arthur, in white scrubs standing in a cell very similar to the one seen in the film’s closing moments, where he bangs his head into the door’s tiny window. Then it cuts back to the scene between Arthur and his social worker. So is it possible that Arthur has been in that white cell the whole time? That he’s simply imagined most of the events depicted in the movie as part of some empowerment fantasy?
The film’s ambiguous nature and provocative ending has prompted an array of takes from IGN’s editors on what the ending of Joker could mean. Here’s what they had to say:
Jim Vejvoda, Executive Editor, Movies:
What if the only unreliable parts of the film’s narrative are where Arthur Fleck imagines someone showing him any affection, from Murray to Sophie to the rioters at the end? Maybe even his mother? If so that would make everything else in the story the truth. That means everything else presented in the film is real, right down to Joker killing Murray Franklin live on TV and Bruce Wayne becoming orphaned during the riots. That begs the question why Arthur is thinking of Bruce Wayne standing over his dead parents during his talk with the psychiatrist at the end. What is the joke he says she wouldn’t get?
The lyrics Arthur mutters at this moment are telling: “That's life, and as funny as it may seem/Some people get their kicks/Stompin' on a dream.” Is Arthur laughing because Thomas Wayne, the father he thinks was his own but who rejected him and the mayoral candidate who claims he was the only one who can save Gotham, is dead? Or is the joke that Bruce -- Arthur’s little brother, if you will -- will also never have a happy day in his life now? Or does Arthur realize he’s set some larger, more momentous destiny in motion between himself and Bruce?
Or, is it that Arthur is simply mad and that nothing that’s transpired in the film is real, from his transformation into Joker to literally anything else? That even the Waynes are just characters in his head? Which parts of the story can be trusted as true? Frankly, that’s the beauty of the film. Joker never makes it clear what is truth or falsehood. And the filmmakers have thus far refused to tip their hands on how much of the story might be real or imagined. I hope they keep that secret.
David Griffin, TV Streaming Editor:
Joker's divisive ending is all about point of view. And in this case, it's Arthur Fleck's (aka Joker) who we must rely on to tell his version of the story truthfully. Seeing Fleck dressed in white at the hospital makes me think that Joker fabricated his whole story, as he recounts his tale to the social worker.
We learned earlier in the film that Fleck is an unreliable narrator, especially after it was revealed that he never had a romantic relationship with Zazie Beetz's Sophie. It seems like the moments when Joker is the happiest in the film, are the times when he's lying: Kissing Sophie, the first time he meets Murray Franklin, being saved by the clowns in the ambulance, etc. Bottom line, you can't trust Joker!
Scott Collura, Executive Editor, Features:
The moment in Joker when his love interest (Zazie Beetz) turns out to be no love interest at all — which is to say, their relationship was all in his head — is one of the keys to understanding Joker and its ending. In that scene, the film finally shows its hand: What has been real up to that point and what have been the fantasies of Joaquin Phoenix’s Arthur is up for debate. Indeed, when we — and Arthur — learn that Arthur’s mom Penny had an affair with Thomas Wayne, and that Wayne is actually Arthur’s father, the film seems in danger of veering off course with a ridiculous twist. But eventually we learn that Penny was also delusional and made the whole thing up. Only... do we?
Remember the photo that shows up right before Phoenix goes full Joker? It’s of the young Penny and appears to have a romantic message from Thomas Wayne on it. Based on that, it seems completely feasible that Wayne gaslit Arthur’s mom, faked the child Arthur’s “adoption,” and even had Penny committed to Arkham in order to keep her quiet. So that, in turn, led to Mrs. Fleck’s mental problems or at least exacerbated them, which fueled Arthur’s problems and his descent into becoming Joker... which inadvertently caused Thomas Wayne’s death, which of course sends Bruce Wayne on a life-long mission of vengeance. That read would mean Thomas Wayne triggered his own death and the creation of Batman!
Simon Cardy, Video Producer - IGN UK:
My take is that this is Fleck revelling in the chaos that has erupted from the barrel of his gun and stating that only he can understand the satisfaction that he has reaped from it. Not only does he find the fact that he has seemingly brought Gotham to its knees hilarious, but also hints at a more personal joy. The cut to an orphaned Bruce Wayne plays as a sick joke in his head, he smiles and takes pleasure in knowing he has destined the most privileged child in the city to a childhood as traumatic as his was. After all, Arthur Fleck ultimately never had Thomas Wayne as father, so why should Bruce? This will ultimately, of course, will lead to Master Wayne spending his life searching for his place in society and acting as a vigilante for the people of Gotham, much in the same way Arthur Fleck had done decades previously, albeit with more honest intentions. Fleck utters the words, “some people get their kicks, stompin' on a dream”, from Sinatra’s “That’s Life” in the same scene.
This is another line that can be taken one of two ways. The more literal being that Joker literally takes joy in the stomping on the dreams and aspirations of others. Another inference could be Fleck’s own feelings towards Robert De Niro’s Murray Franklin, who humiliated him on live television, in turn stomping on his dream of being a successful comedian. This is something he can know smile about however, ever since he painted the set of his show with his own brain. I believe these words to be a statement by director Phillips towards the audience though. Yes, you can believe that most, if not all of the twisted events of Joker took place in Fleck’s mind, but in doing so you are stomping on his dream, which in turn is Gotham’s nightmare and Batman’s birthplace.
Zach Ryan, Director of Social Content and Strategy:
Ultimately, the ambiguity of the film’s ending perfectly mirrors the ambiguity of the Joker himself. Becoming chaos incarnate means that you write your own rules, and create your own past, present, and future. It doesn’t matter if the entire thing happened in the confines of Arthur’s mind, or if Gotham actually burned. In either scenario, he’s accomplished his goals, he’s made himself the (anti) hero. Outside of the obvious sequel set-up, which I honestly hope doesn’t happen as this film feels like a standalone work, the questions that the ending poses to the audience are completely subjective. If you’ve bought into the mythos, does it matter if it’s all made up?
As far as explanations are concerned, I won’t even waste the time to try and convince folks one way or the other. You either trust an extremely unreliable narrator and watch a city burn, or assume you’ve managed to see inside the mind of a sociopath and then head home for a cold shower and a stiff drink.
What did you think of Joker’s ending? How much of what you saw in the film is true and how much is the figment of the main character’s twisted imagination? Let us know in the comments.
For more on Joker, enjoy our rave review, find out why Joker doesn't have a post-credits scene, learn what director Todd Phillips and Joaquin Phoenix had to say about the controversy surrounding the film, get the story behind Joker’s makeup, find out which movies inspired Joker, and discover how Martin Scorsese helped out the DC film.
Oct 4, 2019 · Thomas is furious and swiftly lets Arthur know that he and his mother never had an affair, and that he fired her because she was increasingly unstable. Oh, and she did a stint at the Arkham...
Oct 4, 2019 · Every idea that Penny Fleck had about an illicit affair and lovechild with the head of the Wayne household was put down to the long-suffering woman dealing with serious mental illness.
Oct 5, 2019 · Cullen played his scenes as though Penny and Thomas did indeed have an affair, leaving it a strong possibility that he is Arthur’s father.
